05
May
Babes in TortureLand
Why do we leave it to children to demand the truth about torture and the rule of law?
On April 6, 1977, David Frost was having a particularly difficult time interviewing former President Richard Nixon. Frost’s colleague James Reston, Jr. suggested a new line of questioning, one used earlier in the trial of former Nixon aide John Ehrlichman: Were there no limits to what a president can do, even if it’s plainly illegal? Could he do anything despite the law?
“If the president does it,that means it’s not illegal,” Nixon notoriously replied, arguing, “that in war time, a president does have certain extraordinary powers which would make acts that would otherwise be unlawful, lawful if undertaken for the purpose of preserving the nation and the Constitution…”
While speaking recently at Stanford University, where she steadfastly defended the Bush Administration’s “enhanced interrogation” policies, ex-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice revealed herself to be a Summa Cum Laude graduate of the Richard M. Nixon School of Government.
“We did not torture anyone,” Rice told the Stanford students. “The president instructed us that nothing we would do would be outside of our obligations, legal obligations, under the Convention Against Torture… And so, by definition, if it was authorized by the president, it did not violate our obligations under the Convention Against Torture.”
From Nixon to Bush and beyond, such contentions have seemingly passed muster with large swaths of both America’s citizenry and its press. Now, however, challenges are finally emerging to such dangerous and unconstitutional ideas — albeit from some unlikely sources. Have you ever heard the saying, for example, “Out of the mouths of babes?” Biblical in origin, the phrase is most often used when truth bubbles up unexpectedly – such as when a young person says something that surprises because it shows what we expect to be an adult’s wisdom and understanding…
And so it was recently in our nation’s capital, as Secretary Rice made “her first Washington appearance since leaving office” to speak to students at the Jewish Primary Day School — only to be pressed once again on the troublesome topic of torture, just days after telling the Stanford undergraduates that the gruesome form of torture euphemistically known as waterboarding was “by definition” legal “if it was authorized by the president.”
After years of facing softballs from a doting Washington press corps, Rice must have been taken aback as she fielded still more questions about torture — from a 4th-Grader no less! As reported in the Washington Post, Rice “held forth amiably before a few dozen students about her love of Israel, travel abroad and the importance of learning languages” before opening the floor to their questions. The inquiries, developed by students with the assistance of their teachers, had not been screened in advance by Rice.
“At first, they were innocuous,” noted Post Staff Reporter Alec MacGillis. “What was it like growing up in segregated Birmingham, Ala.? What skill did she want to be best known for?”
Then a fourth-grader named Misha Lerner asked a tough one: what did Rice think about the things President Obama’s administration had been saying concerning methods used by the previous administration to get information from detainees? (According to Misha’s mother, Inna, her son had originally come up with an even tougher question: “If you would work for Obama’s administration, would you push for torture?” But Misha’s teachers apparently acted as editors: “They wanted him to soften it and take out the word ‘torture,’” Ms. Lerner explained. “But the essence of it was the same.”)
“Let me just say that President Bush was very clear that he wanted to do everything he could to protect the country,” Rice responded. “After September 11, we wanted to protect the country. But he was also very clear that we would do nothing, nothing, that was against the law or against our obligations internationally. So the president was only willing to authorize policies that were legal in order to protect the country.”
Rice’s response to the Babes in TortureLand echoed what she had said earlier at Stanford, while pleading for sympathy: “I hope you understand that it was a very difficult time. We were all so terrified of another attack on the country.” Nevertheless, she reiterated, “Even under those most difficult circumstances, the president was not prepared to do something illegal…”
Despite her contention, one student still demanded, “How are we supposed to continue promoting America as this guiding light of democracy and how are we supposed to win hearts and minds in the world as long as we continue with these actions?”
“Well, first of all, you do what’s right,” Rice replied. “That’s the most important thing — that you make a judgment of what’s right.
“And I’ll tell you something,” she continued. “Unless you were there in a position of responsibility after September 11th, you cannot possibly imagine the dilemmas that you faced in trying to protect Americans. And I know a lot of people are second-guessing now, but let me tell you what second-guessing would really have hurt me — if the second-guessing had been about 3,000 more Americans dying because we didn’t do everything we could to protect them.”
Apparently when you’re in that position of responsibility, it helps to be ‘tough-minded” like Bush and Rice.
“Foreign policy is full of tough choices. Very tough choices,” Rice explained. “The world is not a bunch of easy choices in which you get to make ones that always feel good.”
Rice’s student questioner then pointed out that our government had never resorted to torture, “Even in World War II, as we faced Nazi Germany — probably the greatest threat that America has ever faced.”
She quickly shot back, “And we didn’t torture anybody here either. Alright?”
“Is waterboarding torture?” the student then asked.
“I just said — the United States was told, we were told, nothing that violates our obligations under the Convention Against Torture,” Rice maintained. “And so, by definition, if it was authorized by the president, it did not violate our obligations under the Conventions Against Torture.”
Yes, but… is waterboarding torture? And if so, is it illegal —- even when the president condones it? Or are there no limits to what a president can do, even if it’s patently illegal? Can the president do anything despite the law? Unless someone in the Obama Administration soon starts asking uncomfortable questions like those coming out of the mouths of babes like Misha Lerner, the Nixon/Bush/Rice position that we live in a nation ruled by men -— and not laws – may yet prevail.
Hey, Rory, you stupid bastard, that question was not thought up by a 4th grader. And just maybe your dumb liberal ass wouldn’t be around right now if we did not do whatever it takes to kill these bastards before they kill us. The rules of war (Geneva Convention) DO NOT APPLY here. What don’t you understand here?
May 5th, 2009 at 10:27 amRice is channelling Nazi’s. She says she was just following orders. We (America) hung Germans for aggreessive war and sentenced Japanese troopers to 15 years hard labor for waterboarding Americans (and hung the cadre of criminals that authorized torture).
And while we are here. Hannity ( a weak, fat, complacent “patriot” lot’s of them around apparently) says he’ll get waterboarded on TV to prove it isn’t torture. Hitchens lasted about 10 seconds under a controlled situation. KSM lasted 45 seconds during one of his 182 torture sessions. Is Hannity 1/2 the man KSM is? Is he twice the man Hitchens is?
Olbermann has offered 1000 dollars a second to go to troop support organizations. I will give 10 a second. I think there should be a web-site set up to take in contributions. Let’s see Hannity “man-up”. No, he’s weak and corrupt, and venal scared to death by hard men with a willingness to die for what they believe. Hannitty and, by extension, the other weaklings sitting in their plush offices with their staff of toadies and synchophatic ditto-heads would admit to killing Nicole Brown Simpson, the kidnapping of Judge Crater, and the assassination of JFK just being brought into a torture chamber (like we maintain round the world) and having their googles and hoods removed.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:00 amIt’s too bad that Jay has no problem insulting the capabilities of a 4th grader or the integrity of Rory O’Connor. It would appear that Jay should be much, much older than the 4th grader and much, much less sophisticated. It’s about time, as an adult that people who freely practice wholesale hatred against others who don’t embrace their positions take the opportunity to sign-up on the dotted line and face their enemies; in other words join a branch of the military, put your life on the line and see if that exposure to the real world tones down your anger.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:14 amWe need more people in this world who think, THINK, rather than those who spand their time shooting from the hip and being incredibly offensive!
“And I’ll tell you something,” she continued. “Unless you were there in a position of responsibility after September 11th, you cannot possibly imagine the dilemmas that you faced in trying to protect Americans. And I know a lot of people are second-guessing now, but let me tell you what second-guessing would really have hurt me - if the second-guessing had been about 3,000 more Americans dying because we didn’t do everything we could to protect them.”
Comment:
It is true that nobody but those in charge could imagine the pressure, but the results have been catastrophic. More than 3000 Americans died in the result of that “non-second-guessing” not to mention Iraqis innocent, our total loss of sympathy for us, read US, in the world, bad decisions not just on battlefield but home front as well. Creation of the feeling that anybody who criticizes president is not enough America, when exactly opposite was true. Patriotism is not a passive sport. We who knew what was wrong were responsible to voice our concerns to say the least. I don’t think that new president could solve all the problems and I do not blame all of them on Republicans, but at least we have an intelligent man in the chair, someone that I think, is smarter than me. Before, I couldn’t say that.
America should focus on itself, green energy, inventions, electric car, education, quality communications (we are totally behind the so called western world). Substance over form, better movies, quality diet, rise the level of common good, help neighborhoods. Fast trains, 0 carbon emission. Lead the world, or at least follow smart ones.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:11 pmShame on you Condi Rice. So if the president wants you to start going to the back of the bus again, where YOU and only YOU belong at this point, I guess you’ll be marching your sorry ass back there, “because if the president says it, it’s not illegal.” I know you’re still carrying the 2 criminals, George & Dick’s banner, but don’t be a moron. You’re too smart for that.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:33 pmHere is a simple and direct question for you. Is it OK for captured American soldiers to be waterboarded? If we don’t want done to us, let’s not do it to them. It’s that simple!!!
Jay, why the problem? Our country has always played by the rules, except for the eight long torturous years when Bush and Cheney ignored the very laws they swore to uphold and protect, all in the name of national security. But, the only thing they were trying to protect was their own crimes. Bush idealogues still justify his making war on a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. When you have a president like Bush and a vice president like Cheney who were basically criminals breaking the laws at every turn, that gave us a black eye around the world. Everything that we stood for, everything that made people in other countries want to come here and live - legally - was wiped away by Bush, Cheney, their minions and the rest of those on the extreme far right. The rules of war - the Geneva Convention - still applied, because we agreed to and swore to uphold them. They also applied because Bush and Cheney made war upon Iraq, a country, and not against the real criminal terrorists of Usama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda group. The rules of war did not apply to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda because their actions did not publicly represent the political views of their home countries. But, Bush and Cheney destroyed Iraq by linking that country to Al Qaeda, despite the fact that Saddam Hussein (no great loss there) had no connection to Al Qaeda.
Bush and Cheney and company got away with all of the laws they broke because they were protected by the Republicans in both houses. And the Hannitys and Limbaughs and the O’Reillys and Savages and the others gave you your marching orders and told you what you had to believe. The rot of Hitler must’ve been smiling from the hottest regions of hell over the Republican goosesteppers who believed in Bush, the American Hitler, instead of calling for his hide.
And the goosesteppers still believed in him as he destroyed our economy with his personal vendetta war against Iraq.
Am I an angry citizen of our country? Far from it, but I recall the hypocrisy of the Republicans during the Bill Clinton-Monica Lewinsky storm, who swore they would never stand for one of their own lying. But, they did stand and they, along with almost all Republicans, consumed the Kool Aid because it was wrapped up in the name of national security.
Personally, I hope the Republicans never regain control of the houses and the presidency the rest of our lifetimes. They don’t deserve to be in control as they can’t be trusted. With any luck, one or two of the conservative voices on the Supreme Court will step down and be replaced by more liberal voices. Our country was great once and maybe it’s on its way to being great again. I hope so, as for that to happen, the Republicans: those on the fascist far right and the extreme fascist far right must be marginalized, to the degree where common thugs like Bush, Cheney, Alberto Gonzales are not allowed to break the laws they swore to defend and uphold. We are better off now as Obama is restoring sanity in running the government. But, those on the far right are still shooting their issue blanks - issues that don’t matter to the majority of Americans any more because under Bush-Cheney, they saw where those issues took them, you and me and everyone else. The Republicans will one day be in control again, I have no doubt of that. But, for that to happen, they must move to the center rather than to the far right, which is where they are now and where they want to stay. They have no desire to rule our country in a bipartisan manner, they just want to please one group instead of all individuals. That path will ultimately lead them into oblivion, and when that happens, they will deserve the credit for killing their own party.
May 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm